Andrew: [00:00:00] If you are doing PT and stretching just to keep your symptoms, at bay, then you haven't looked deep enough.
And I messaged her like, what does that mean?
And she's like, your dysregulated nervous system and inability to process your emotions are causing your continuous pain. I ended up working with her for the first three months and I'm thinking she's a pelvic pt, so I wanna go over all of my symptoms and all these little things.
And she's like, nah, we don't need to talk about that. We need to talk about your nervous system. We need to talk about, that you don't have physical damage. I was dealing with the fear of this pudendal neuralgia, basically a pinched nerve at your sit bones.
And she's like, look at the bazillion number of cyclists in the world. Had you ever heard of this before? You've been into cycling for 25 years, training, racing, doing all. I'm like, no. She's like, because it's incredibly uncommon and your body is keeping you off your bike so that you can pay attention to it and pay attention to what's going on in your brain and slow you down.[00:01:00]
Hi everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Sacred Illness Podcast. I'm very excited today to have another special [00:02:00] guest here to share his story of healing and experiences with mind-body Medicine. today we have Andrew, who's coming from outside of the Atlanta area. He is a civil and environmental engineer, and his story is one of, working with chronic pain, specifically chronic pelvic pain.
Dr. Erin Hayford: For those who are watching, you'll see there's a bicycle behind Andrew, and that's relevant to the story because he's a cyclist.
And it's easy to attribute the symptoms to, you know, like for Andrew's story, his pain is very common in people who are bicyclists. And so it's easy for us to blame it on those activities. But his story is really interesting because he was able to kind of step outside of that. Space and say, I think there's something more to it.
So we're gonna hear about his story and his journey with that pain, how the cycling was sort of part of the story and helping to lead to, it sounds like lead to some of your discoveries that you made in your, in your health and your wellbeing and that mind body connection. he's raising two teenage boys and he has a wife who's a NICU nurse.
And so thank you so much for being here, Andrew. we've been chatting on Instagram for a long time, [00:03:00] so we were saying it's nice to meet like virtually in person finally. and yeah, I'll turn it over to you.
I'd love to just hop right in wherever this story begins.
Andrew: Yeah. Thanks Erin. good to talk to another, Yankee transplant and, yes. Fondo over talking quickly. Thinking quickly.
that's what we can say, right?
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yes.
Andrew: thanks for having me on. I like to share my story, as a way to give back to the folks that helped me. There's, a ton of folks like yourself that put a lot of free material out there, in hopes to reach people. I'm an engineer.
I do that as my day job. I've done a few podcasts, and I get people that contact me and, I help 'em out. So, I try to weave in, what I'm up to, and give people hope that they can get outta it and, not just get back to their old ways, but get back to a better way and find some things out about themselves in the process, which I've learned a lot about myself. So I'll start, I'll really condense the story short and kind of get it out there, and then we can dig into it. So, back in mid 2019, for about three years after that, I dealt with a handful of [00:04:00] odd symptoms like stiff and popping joints, muscle pain and cramps, brain fog. weird, urgent and frequent urination and these would come and go.
And I went through the naturopathic route, tons of blood work and urine and tests and supplements and, food eliminations. And that really didn't get me very far, but that's what I dealt with for a few years in, April, 2022. So, almost three years ago now, right? I got hit by incredible pelvic pain and symptoms around pelvic pain.
knocked me out, quickly put me to the point where I work and went through the. Physical mode, you know, typical physical modalities and we can go into all the stuff you would expect. Urologist, pelvic specialist. and then kind of the medicated side, pain, medication, injections, [00:05:00] pt, stretching, I'll keep going.
Mm-hmm. got to a really dark place during that period, but slowly recovered to a point where I could get back to life, but was nowhere near a hundred percent. went through a few months of that. And then during an especially stressful time in my life, my father passing away and a few other big events, around people that I love and care for, all the symptoms came back and then some.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Wow.
Andrew: some, you know, the addition of sitting bone pain where I couldn't sit, on hard surfaces.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Wow.
Andrew: and I returned to the physical treatment at first, but I really was able to associate that to stress. I was very fortunate that I got breadcrumbs along the way.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yeah.
Andrew: That, like little pieces of information that helped me see that it was stress related and not just a physical issue, that needed to be treated through a hundred percent physical needs.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Mm-hmm.
Andrew: And so through that, I ran [00:06:00] into MINDBODY approaches, TMS, and, started working with an initial coach who got me out of the worst of it, and then, plateaued for a while and worked with a second coach.
And got me to a hundred percent recovered.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Wow.
Andrew: and like I said, mentioned earlier, learned a lot about myself in the process, and that was a little over a year ago. And at that time, I decided to share my story. and so for the past year, I've had my story out there, that Instagram site, that you referred to.
The first podcast I did is about a year old. And, I've just been helping people pretty much passively. My story's out there, people find me in different ways. I messaged with them, try to figure out where they're at, aim them at, you know, books, resources, coaches for sure.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Mm-hmm.
Andrew: And it's been really rewarding. and it's so different than what I do as an engineer and, managing, projects and people and technical stuff
And I get a lot out of it. [00:07:00] So that's my quick story. that's back to 2019, so that's like six years in whatever that was. Five minutes.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yeah. Love that. the overview. So let's sink our teeth into that. 'cause there's so much in there that I think we can extract. And I was saying to you too, before I hit record, just how fascinating it is to me that, I mean, you know, and I guess it makes sense that we follow the same trajectory, right?
Of like getting to that place where it's like. This isn't working, this isn't working, this isn't working. And I don't know what that is, where some of you know, is it luck? Is it fate? I don't know. That some of us get turned on to mind body stuff and some of us just continue down that path of having like a good enough life of, of like management essentially where we're just taking medications for the rest of our life or whatever that is.
So what I, and I think that's part of this work too, is like right, trying to just get that information out there because it's just not the normal way of thinking about it. And I want it to be, that's kind of the goal of the work that I do. And like you said, putting out free content, just trying to put stuff out into the world so that people [00:08:00] can like increasing the chances that people are gonna bump into this information because it feels like it is very much just like luck of the draw if someone like hears about it or hears someone's story or learns about these alternative things versus it being a more commonly like shared thing, right?
Like not many doctors or like, well why don't you try TMS or that or whatever. yeah. So I wanted to actually first clarify the TMS thing because TMS to some folks means trans magnetic stimulation, which is like a treatment for depression and anxiety. will you share with us what that's all about?
Andrew: Yeah. And I, I don't use that acronym very often because I like the mind body, you know, mind body condition, mind body syndrome. I like that term better. But TMS, it doesn't even matter what it stands for. It goes back to John Sarno's original work from the eighties. And a lot of people see him as the more medical route of mind body science.
so I've found in my interactions that there's that medical route that people got there. [00:09:00] There's former back surgeons that use mind body approaches instead of back surgery anymore. but then you also have more of that, Psychological side that comes from the, so, so TMS comes from Dr. John Sarno who wrote a series of books starting in the eighties people see him as one of the forefathers of this approach.
but you know, I don't use that acronym 'cause I find it's confusing to people and we've learned so much about it. Not to discredit him, because he did really some cool stuff when he wrote those initial books and he was really ahead of his time. But, you know, we can use different terms, and not make it confusing.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Totally. Yes. those books are really great. I think it's a good kind of, just like you said, it kind of bridges that gap of like, 'cause he's a medical doctor, but he's Right, he's a medical doctor, but he's coming into this world of like, basically kind of like what we're saying.
Like, I am seeing all these people, nothing's working. what's missing, what's missing? And that led him to developing this, methodology and mindset that he has around working with chronic [00:10:00] pain. and so you worked with, a coach trained in his methodology. Is that right?
Andrew: The coaches I worked with had those approaches in the various different training methods that are out there now. pain reprocessing therapy, PRT, is another one that's out there that many coaches go through and learn. and again, it all depends on how people get there, what is their background,
Incredible physical therapists that now look at it and say, this is not just me putting my hands on you and fixing your muscles and alignment. this is a whole approach of convincing you that you're safe and that you are nowhere near as broken as you think
And so, I learn a lot from those, PTs. I learn people that come in, come into it from like the therapist LCS W side. I like to get all these pieces and I think when people contact me, I can hear from them where their mindset is and kind of cater to that a bit,
you know, I listened to way too many podcasts, and continue to do [00:11:00] so. 'cause I just find it so fascinating and that when they connect with me, I can aim them at something that resonates because you know how it is, like the first interaction they have may be their turn on or turn off.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Totally.
Andrew: if they come from a, more science background, like I have, if the first thing I aim them at is really woo woo right. Crystals and they're gonna be like, yeah, hell no. This is not me. Right.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Right.
Andrew: So, you know, it's just finding the connection to get them introduced to it.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yes, absolutely. that's, so it, the mindset piece, 'cause part of your story was like, you had that recognition of like, the stress. Like you were very, and maybe that's your engineer brain where you're like correlating, you know, like, okay, when this happens, this happens. Who knows? Right? Like, we were able to see it from that way.
I think so many of us, get that message from doctors too. Like it's kind of in this more, maybe not condescending, but just like I. like poo-pooing way of like, oh, it's probably just stress. And it's like we say that and in this flippant way and it's like, okay, but that's actually a thing.
Like, that's actually a huge thing. Why don't we, why don't we sink our teeth into that more? Like, [00:12:00] why don't we pay attention to that more and really look at what that actually means, because that is like a huge cause of illness and a foundational piece of illness. And I think, you know, so many of us can probably say like, oh yeah, I can, you know, when I get stressed, my symptoms flare when this big event happened, like you, for you, right?
Like everything came back, or Yeah, that's when everything started. But somehow like, there's like a switch that's not flipping right? It's like we're not quite like making that connection of like, okay, so that's the focus. That's where I need to tune in and instead we go down that physical route. So yes, it's totally like the mindset piece and finding that inroad where you can.
Speak to people. And I hope often say like, this is why my work is so unsexy, because I'm like trying to get people into this world where we're just not in that paradigm. It's a different paradigm to think of illness in this more like less physically tangible way and more in this like brain connected way.
it is physical, right? Like the nervous system wires to everything in the body. There's nothing, not real or physical about it. But [00:13:00] I think it's just because it's like you can't diagnose a nervous system that's stressed, right? there's just a different way we have to look at it. and so what would you say, 'cause you just said, you said something so key I think, and I wrote it down like this.
There's this whole thing over with pain. In convincing you that you're safe, right? And you're not as broken as you think, that kind of mindset. So how would you, if you were talking to someone who's very much in that you know, western so-called Western medical mindset, like, yeah, this is physical, I need medication, I need surgery.
How do you begin to talk to someone like that?
Andrew: Yeah. As I've talked to people, I think that the first step is understanding some basics of pain science. And again, that might be my engineer brain, that cause and effect, but getting people to wrap their head around that, that the sensation they have, whether it's pain or something else, is not a direct correlation to what's going on at the point of the body where they feel it.
your body part. Sends a [00:14:00] signal to the brain and then the brain decides what to do with it. And if you watch your hand get a nail through it, your brain's gonna immediately turn that into pain.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yep.
Andrew: These are some obvious things, but there's so many nuances along that spectrum of what the brain can do with the signal or whether the brain can continue to create pain with no signal happening.
And so I think that's a really important first step. and it can be an aha moment for somebody who has been to all these appointments, to doctors and the doctor, I can't find anything wrong. Your scans are showing up fine. you don't have an infection, you don't have this. And they're like, well, why do I have this pain?
And I said, well, your brain is creating the pain and there is something going on there physically you need to kind of. Think about is that happening because the brain is causing the pain and that's why the muscles are tight. Because you know, if you can't figure out, anything [00:15:00] else that started that domino, there is some reason that the brain is continuing to create pain.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yep.
Andrew: And so that's a really important first step is that will help people buy in and gain a little bit of safety, a little bit of like, okay, I see how this is happening. And it may turn the alarm level down a little bit. And every time you can turn that alarm level down and get that nervous system closer to a state of calm and get outta that fight or flight, if you can, you're going to start to be able to think more rationally
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yes.
Andrew: And really hard to move into any of the tools that will help if you're still on high alert.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yep.
Andrew: so I think that, understanding pain science is so key. I have some personal stories, that I think are good. You know, there's the Phantom Lin story, that you could use.
There's the, somewhat famous story about [00:16:00] the guy getting the nail through his boot and being excruciating pain, and then taking the boot off and the nail went between his toes.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Oh, wow.
Andrew: You know, there's so many. and I even, I used this one recently with somebody who was younger than me and was talk, you know, I knew he had a girlfriend and, you know, pelvic pain was getting in the way of his life and all this stuff.
I said, all right, let me connect you to this. Let's say you're home watching a movie, and this is a really weird one, but it gives you an idea of sometimes like you just have to find the thing to connect.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yeah.
Andrew: you're sitting home watching a movie and you feel. Somebody starting to rub your shoulders.
You expected your girlfriend to come over. She's rubbing your shoulders. It feels good. It's relaxing. You look up and it's your buddy playing a joke on you. How does the, how does the rubbing on your shoulders feel? He's like, oh, that's so creepy. I said, well, how did it, how did it go from feeling good to creepy instantaneously?
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yeah,
Andrew: I said, do you see that the signal that was coming from your shoulders to your brain was exactly the [00:17:00] same?
Dr. Erin Hayford: That's so good.
Andrew: but your brain, when it thought it was your girlfriend, it was relaxing and like, oh good, she's here. We're gonna watch this movie.
And it's your weird buddy playing a prank on you and getting a laugh and immediately like you wanted to punch him. He like, yeah, I would punch him.
Dr. Erin Hayford: That's great though. I mean, I think that's exactly the kind of like you're saying, you're, you're finding that like, metaphor, right?
That helps a person relate it to their own life where they're like, okay, that makes sense. And now I can make that not so big leap now into how this could be the exact same thing. and I even think about what we refer to as referred pain. You know, for example gallbladder, pain, it's really common or call it gallbladder issues.
It's common to feel pain in different parts of the body. it's not this linear thing. And I think this is so key and this actually, can go across the spectrum of symptoms no matter if it's a pain thing or some other sensation in the body where it's normal and, biologically adaptive and smart to be kind of afraid of it, right?
To have this response of like, oh crap, what's happening in my body? 'cause if, if nothing else, that's the point of it, right? Is to be like, tune [00:18:00] in, something's happening. But then like where we go from there is what matters, right? So it's supposed to get your attention. It's supposed to be a little bit of a like, ooh, what's, what is that?
but if we get stuck in that like fear cycle of like, oh my God, like you said, like I'm broken, my body's failing. you know, I'm never gonna be safe. I'm never gonna be okay. We can start to, like, I see this so many times with the people I work with, where our bodies themselves become a trigger.
You know, like there's something in our world that makes us feel not safe. There's something that is the initial wound, so to speak, and that's what kind of starts things off. But then the body itself can perpetuate that. And so it really is important to have those experiences where we start to see, oh, okay, I can see how this is causing that, or feeding into it.
I just had a session last week with someone, a one-on-one session, and she has lots of symptoms and lots of sensations. But she was having, we were focusing on this sensation she was having in her liver and she was convinced, you know, I think I have cirrhosis or there's something wrong with my liver.
Or like, this is another disease or issue. 'cause she has so much [00:19:00] trauma just from being sick. And we did some somatic work, like tuned into that sensation and it moved. And I was like, well what does that mean then? Right? Like if it, right, if it was in your liver and now you're feeling it over here in your stomach, like yeah, it can't be your liver.
Right. And that's, I think, you know, so that's kind of, I think the way I can bridge that gap for folks is like, this is how we move that mindset around, okay, it's not this physical failure issue necessarily. Right. There's some brain connection here that's creating a sensation. And so then I guess my way of thinking is like I.
What's the next step? So, okay, you're seeing your brain is creating that pain syndrome or that pain sensation. How do you then begin to dig deeper into, you know, and obviously I have my ways of doing it, but I'm curious for you, like, what was your next step to getting deeper into like, well, what is this all about in the first place?
Like where does this come from and why is it happening For me?
Andrew: Yeah. I mean, I think, and I have to remember this too, when I talk to people, there's a few steps. if you [00:20:00] take somebody who's just getting open to the idea that it's not a physical condition that needs to be fixed and you jump from there to like emotional processing life purpose, there're gonna be like, you know, you just hear a dial tone.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yeah.
Andrew: they're done. so then from, you know, once if I connect with people, and they start to embrace the pain science, and they get That pain doesn't necessarily mean tissue damage that needs to be healed or fixed in some medical or surgical manner. then it's about, understanding the nervous system and how a dysregulated nervous system can add to your brain's inability to process well and to exaggerate sensations or create them.
that takes some work, but people can get it. when they think about how your body behaves when you're in fight or [00:21:00] flight. you said the stress that you've been under has created a low level continuous fight or flight, and it's become your norm and you don't even know it.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yep.
Andrew: I, and kind of start to connect with people and be like, can you sit still?
Can you meditate? Can you. Single task and not multitask. And we've created a new norm in our culture. I'm guilty of it. I default back to this all the time, and try to find methods. I watch my wife, she's so much better at it than I am. but we've created a norm of just staying so busy, and so get people to kind of recognize that they can't even sit still, that their nervous system is just, buzzing at high RPMs all the time.
And that is putting your brain in a defensive manner. And it's all these, you know, it's behavior is different. So getting them to warm up to that and it, and then teaching them some tools, the same tools that I learned to start with, a bit around meditation, a bit around the [00:22:00] deep breathing, that will calm your nervous system and, and be able to control it.
you want a nervous system that has a big span. Right. otherwise we're just emotional zombies. so we want that. but you also want to be able to regulate it and not have every email that comes in puts you into a panic attack.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Right.
Andrew: And that, that's where we are. And, you know, in our culture quite often, every confrontation puts you in panic mode or whatever.
It's, so if I can get, that moved along a little bit, and talk about the pain science, you talk about the nervous system. There's nothing woo woo here. This is science. Where people struggle with it is trying to connect that to chronic symptoms.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yeah.
Andrew: And they can even maybe relate to something acute, but it might be a leap for them to see that as something that can contribute to a chronic issue.
Dr. Erin Hayford: I agree with that.
Andrew: Yep. And then, so yeah, the nervous system side. And then, I learned a lot through the somatic tracking. my second coach [00:23:00] especially, worked with me on that.
she was great and that really changed my fear of pain.
Dr. Erin Hayford: That's amazing.
Andrew: when you have low level symptoms, being able to recognize it and be comfortable with it and really not try to wish it away or ignore it, is just, all right. I know nothing's wrong with my body.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yep.
Andrew: And I have a sensation for me, especially after that second big wave of it, it was sit bone pain. I could sit, is just being like, yeah, it's a small discomfort. It's a sensation. And you just lower your fear of it and, and then that can really fade. And that's really where I think those things kind of all coming together get at the, you know, any one of those can give you a lot of success.
But for me, I definitely recognized that, I really needed to do more on the emotional side. and you know, I don't have it all [00:24:00] solved by any means. I mean, there's a lot I'm working on when I can but I also try to explain to people at that point if they've kind of followed those breadcrumbs is like having unresolved emotional issues.
Whether it's things about the past, current or future. I think there's a lot of talk about past traumas. I think that can be relevant to some people. current can be an issue or like the life purpose is more about worried about your future. Like, is this what I'm gonna do for the rest of my life?
All those things, you don't have to have it solved, but you can't just ignore it and keep your mind distracted.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yes. And that's exactly what I found with my own stuff too, because my, as I think, you know, I'm symptom free also, and yeah, I'm still learning. Like, I'm constantly still learning more and healing more, and like just having deeper understanding about myself or, you know, working through other things that I haven't been resolved.
I feel like it really is that, just that change in approach though, like when you decide to stop being so afraid and be in that survival mode and be in that, just that [00:25:00] constant, like for me it was this constant like running away from myself, right? Like constantly staying busy, like you were saying, like totally focused outside of myself, distracting myself from what my body was doing.
Just like cutting myself off from it and like pushing ahead, pushing ahead, pushing ahead. And it wasn't until I stopped that obviously that my symptoms resolved and you know, so to me, as we were saying before we hit record, like. Symptoms are that thing that's trying to pull you into your body. Like, Hey, please, please, for the love of God, like stop and tune in and pay attention.
there's ways that you're existing, there's things your body is carrying that like you can't, it's like you have a suitcase of like toxic sludge that you keep just like packing more and more full and like your body's like, we can't keep carrying this around without some sort of consequence.
Something has to shift. And so again, it's that mindset shift where again, it's, yeah, it's normal and it's understandable to be afraid and to be kind of triggered or, stressed about symptoms, but like ultimately they're trying to call you in. So we can have that sort of like, Ooh, what is this?
I [00:26:00] should probably pay attention to it though, as like kind of the other side versus going into that. Immediate place of like, suppress it, make it quiet so that I, it's, I think our approach is so backwards because we're trying to silence the messenger so that we can continue to live in the way that is not conducive to health and healing.
Thinking that that's the solution when really it's, we can certainly, you know, calm the pain down, you know, I'm not opposed to taking medications or anything like that because we do have to function and live, but if we're doing that and then nothing else, right? Then we're, we're just pushing ourself forward in this life and in this mindset and in this way that is not actually taking care of the, the reasons why those symptoms showed up in the first place.
So I love that. You know, just that. Yeah. I mean, and, and does that match with yours, what you said, like you don't have it all solved and yet your pain is gone, right? Is that, is it, has it been gone for over a year, you said?
Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. Well over a year now, right? And, what you touched on I think is important for folks that might be listening,
Lowering your pain [00:27:00] however you can is key. it's really hard to move on with the other things when you're uncomfortable and can't function and, miserable. but recognizing that you are, doing something that's temporary, it's not gonna get you outta your condition.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yes,
Andrew: so I have people reach me out to me because they say like, oh, you know, should I continue to go to pt? Should I continue to do stretching all around the pelvic pain? should I continue to use meds? And I'm like, well first off, ask yourself, is it helping? Because if you're doing something and you're doing it out of fear and you're doing it because you think it helps and it's not doing anything, then question that if it is helping, awesome.
but let me help you understand why it's helping. It's giving you a sense of. There, there may be obviously medication, there may be some chemical processes happening. I'm not gonna deny that. Right. But it also might be that it's simply making you feel safe.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Mm-hmm.
Andrew: You know, the physical therapist that does [00:28:00] the manual work, this person heard you, they helped you, they cared for you, they told you you're gonna be okay.
Great. but don't expect that they're gonna find that reset button that's somewhere, on your body that's the control alt delete that gets you to start over again. same thing with stretching. All these things would give you, that benefit of making you feel safe, knocking your nervous system down to less, getting it out of high alert and get you a spot where you can think rationally.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yeah.
Andrew: But if you just think, I'm just gonna keep doing this every week forever, you go, well, you're gonna be stuck.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yep. And that's where people get frustrated because it's like, oh, this is helping. Thank God, you know, I found the answer. And then they again, keep pushing ahead in that same mindset and lifestyle and all those things eventually,
But on a physical level, I think eventually the, it's just that that emotional luggage, so to speak, is gonna override the medication eventually. [00:29:00] 'cause it's still there, you know, That medication is just a stopgap measure to help you function and calm down enough to start to think in a bigger way, broader way, like you were saying.
Andrew: pop up somewhere else in your body, you know? Right, exactly. Yes. They'll, they'll go, okay, well, oh, somehow my back pain moved to migraines or whatever it might be. Or irritable bowel, so now I'm gonna, but then, you know, if you just keep doing this same chasing, you know, it, then you're like, oh, I have irritable bowel, now I gotta do an elimination diet.
And you know, you know, and then you just. You're just distracting and you're just staying busy with it. It's another thing that your brain is comfortable doing. Staying busy.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yes. A hundred percent. And this is ultimately why I stepped out of practicing as an naturopath and moved into this specialty because I was doing, I was seeing that in the work I was doing where it's like, okay, well that's managed, but now we have this.
Okay, so let's manage that. now we have this. And you know, now of course I would get people who were kind of coming out of the conventional medical world into the alternative world and they would have med lists. Like, I've seen people on like 30 things before. It's insane. That complexity of [00:30:00] how the body is just never ending, trying to get our attention and we keep whacking it down and whacking it down I think it's so crucial to say there are things that are necessary, right.
Physical things that we need to do to take care of ourselves. Yes. Right. and like I think it's exactly as you said, it's, we're using it as a tool to provide relief, to help us feel safe, to help our body calm down, to take the edge off of that activation. So it again, is a mindset shift of knowing why you're doing it and what its purpose is, and knowing that it's not a forever thing because we are so married to that model of I take the pill and that fixes me, and then I move on with my life.
And I think, again, this medicine is less appealing to folks because it's actually like more work than that. You know? It's like if you really wanna like listen to what this illness is about, or this symptom is about, it's asking you to step into a different life and into a different way of being and moving in the world and being in relationship with yourself too, right?
Like that's, and that goes into that emotional healing and understanding all these things that have happened. so it's, [00:31:00] there's just more to it and I think that's why
Andrew: it's active and self-driven rather than passive and specialist driven.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yes.
Andrew: You feel like, well, I thought somebody was gonna come along and fix this for me.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Right.
Andrew: that's not the way it's gonna work. you have to work on it. but it's much more gratifying, if I look at where I was when I was at my darkest spot and where I am now, like, sometimes I'm like, I can't believe I did that.
it's amazing. And yeah, there was all these attempts on the physical modalities for a bit, but once I realized that this is stress driven and I can, embrace the idea that there's nothing wrong with my body. I can get back to riding my bike. I can get back to all the things I couldn't do.
I can get back to work. I had to take time off from work when it hit me. And this was from coming from somebody who never took time off, which probably led a part of the issues.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Right.
Andrew: So yeah, I mean I think that if, people can get [00:32:00] there, then it's, really quite empowering.
Dr. Erin Hayford: yeah.
Andrew: But I've certainly had people reach out to me that are very early on. They're not really open to it yet. they're frustrated to hear that I didn't find some medicine or something that just flipped a switch and it made a go away.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yeah.
Andrew: and they're not, you know, they might not be ready yet to soak all this in.
I bought, one of the John Sarno books and the Way Out by Alan Gordon earlier in my journey, and they sat on the shelf because I was wrapped up in the physical treatments.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yep, yep.
Andrew: Totally. So it took time to get there.
And it was a, like I said, I was lucky to have these breadcrumbs along the way. Really lucky on a bunch of the practitioners that I touched with my first urologist. I had gone to urgent care to what I thought might be a UTI, I was up all night urinating and in pain. That was the first real big wave of it.
And by the time I got to see the urologist, it had been a few weeks and [00:33:00] she was like, you, you've been tested twice. You don't have an infection. Get off the antibiotics. This is, a manifestation of stress. Your pelvic floor muscles are all tightened up and cramped now. She didn't put me on the mind body path, but Right.
She was not like, let's send you off for three more scans.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yep.
Andrew: So that was like breadcrumb one, right? It was in there. And I still, I mean, I got, I went downhill much more from there. It got a lot worse. So, you know, it took more than just that one. But I was very lucky where other people get stuck in this for years.
Yeah.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yeah. And it is totally that. I mean, I think all of us, I did the same path, right? I started out with prednisone and heavy hitting immune suppressing drugs and anti-inflammatories and, you know, I was 20, so I didn't really have much of a choice or worldview at that point to like have a bigger understanding, especially without social media being what it was.
Like I couldn't hop on Instagram and whatever [00:34:00] at that point. but still, right, like, there, I think there are, Ways in which we kind of have to see almost, we have to see the other things fail to really get to that point. Until really, I think, until the culture changes, right? Until the paradigm has shifted, and this is just the way that we all talk and think about it, it takes time for us to really ultimately feel safe with this other path.
Because as we've been talking about, a lot of all of this is a lack of safety, right? It's a lack of safety from that emotional perspective that then causes the illness, which causes a lack of safety. So then we go to what feels safe, which is what's familiar, which is western medicine, right? that model is safe to us.
And it's really scary when that starts to fail us. and that's when I think people really go into that crisis space that you were talking about, those really dark places where it's like, is this my life? And you know, two podcasts ago I interviewed someone who did that same thing, and she got to that point where she was suicidal because she was like, I can't go on.
Like, I can't, this can't be my life. I can't survive like living like this. And you know, again, [00:35:00] it was just that those like little shifts, like those little miracle things that happen that just put us suddenly onto a different path or just help shift our perspective. And, but it's really scary to get to the end, what feels like the end of the road where it's like, I've done everything, my pain is worse, or my symptoms are coming back, or whatever that is.
my hope is to keep. Putting this message out there, but it is those little breadcrumbs, those little seeds that get planted that I think really come through in those dark moments where you're like, well, what about that thing? That person said like, you know, maybe let's just give that a try.
Who knows? Maybe that's the thing. but it is about, I think, slowly weaning off of one while the other one starts to feel more and more, maybe not safe, but just like, well, nothing else has worked, so I guess I'll just give this a try, or like, I'll look into that or whatever. so yeah, if you feel open to it, like in that dark place that you entered into, how did you, like, what was the thing that shifted you out of that?
Or if you remember, like, how did you start to move back up again? Because I think a lot of people can relate to that space.
Andrew: Yeah. [00:36:00] So, like I said, I got hit by it, it knocked me out. I ended up taking about six weeks off from work and got to a point where I could return to work.
And there was a few months, Where I felt okay. And then, you know, a number of tough things happened quickly. The biggest one, my father, being diagnosed with cancer and dying very quickly and my pain went through the roof
My wife, angel, she went out there and helped him with his last few days.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Mm-hmm.
Andrew: and so yeah, the pain went way up and I took that month off. It was December and, you know, took the month off. it was so frustrating 'cause, I had got to maybe a 70% return to, normal, before that.
Went to that really awful dark place. Can't believe everything came back. Now I have different pain, different symptoms, out of sick time, certainly I had really supportive coworkers, but still, you know, felt like I was starting to test their patients. And I worked directly with clients that I do engineering work for project [00:37:00] management, work for, and, they could start to lose trust that, I'm gonna be there when they call me.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yeah.
Andrew: so, you know, I went back to some of the physical modalities at first 'cause, you know, there was that urgency. But again, that, that I recognize that it was stress related. But what does that mean? At first, like when you, you don't quite get it all. You're like, all right, well, is the stress making it worse?
Is there something there that's just amplifying it? And so I definitely had some of those breadcrumbs and I kept bumping into a different way of looking at it. I was starting to follow, you know, these pelvic PTs online, you know, because I wanted, you know, Hey, do this stretch, do that stretch. Hey, it's this muscle.
Here's the anatomy of your pels. You know? and trust me, like I could really give you TMI about treating pelvic pain.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Mm-hmm.
Andrew: And so you're like learning all this stuff and you're in dark spot. You're looking for anything. And she ended up being the first coach I worked for, she [00:38:00] was a pelvic PT that had moved to all remote clients and your head just explodes.
How could a physical therapist work with remote clients? Right. Isn't it all about putting your hands on somebody and fixing them? And she had on Instagram something along the lines of. If you are doing PT and stretching just to keep your symptoms, at bay, then you haven't looked deep enough.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Wow.
Andrew: And you know, like head exploding emoji and just like, well what is the, you know, I messaged her like, what does that mean?
And she's like, you know, your dysregulated nervous system and inability to process your emotions are causing your continuous pain. And then I ended up working with her for the first three months and I'm sure it was frustrating as heck in the beginning because, you know, like I'm thinking she's a pelvic pt, so I'm gonna go in through all, I wanna go over all of my symptoms and all these little things.
Dr. Erin Hayford: [00:39:00] Yeah.
Andrew: we need to talk about this. We need to talk about your nervous system. We need to talk about, that you don't have physical damage. I was dealing with the fear of this pudendal neuralgia, basically a pinched nerve at your sit bones.
And she's like, look at the bazillion number of cyclists in the world. Had you ever heard of this before? You've been into cycling for 25 years, training, racing, doing all. I'm like, no. She's like, because it's incredibly uncommon and your body is keeping you off your bike so that you can pay attention to it and pay attention to what's going on in your brain and slow you down.
And so, you know, I started to gain confidence that, I could get better. And now still I was having little flares all the time. still having some issues, but there was some momentum there,
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. I mean, and I think like, thank God for social media, right? Because like we can find those, those people or [00:40:00] those messages or those things that were not so readily available back in the day.
But yeah, it's, it's that, I think it is, it does sometimes take us getting to that place of almost desperation where we're just like, what? Like, I'll do anything. I'll try anything. I don't even care anymore. You know? but that planting, that seed it, like you said earlier, like there, it's almost like we switch into this place of it being the worst thing ever ruining our life in the way of like, you know, like you said, it, it literally took you off your bike, it looked, took you outta your work.
You couldn't sit down, you couldn't do anything. and so the first mindset is like, this is the worst thing ever. I hate this. It's ruining my life. And then suddenly we start to see like, whoa. okay. It's actually this, it's like a communication. Like my body's actually trying to get me to look at something deeper.
It's only until we first understand that and then start to understand what it's trying to get us to look at, that it does start to become empowering in that way. Because at least for me, what I have found is it's a conversation, right? Like our bodies are, it's like a filter, right?
Like they're holding and processing [00:41:00] and, communicating everything in our life, right? Like our body, our subconscious and our nervous system is processing so much more than we could ever consciously understand. Yes. And so, you know, it's like letting us know, like, okay, we absorbed a bunch of stuff from here or here or here that consciously maybe you overwrote or ignored or forgot, but we didn't, so please come talk to us and like, look at this and now it's time to look at this or process it.
And so it becomes this dance, this like empowering conversation. So for me, like my symptoms, I think of myself as in remission. My gut is my sensitive spot. Right? That's where my Crohn's was. I don't ever have full blown Crohn's disease. I get little like, you know, ooh, that my gut feels off a little bit.
Or I had a little bit of a flare up after I gave birth to my son. I think there's some immune stuff going on there, just in general, but, I do see it as this conversation of like, reigning me back in. Right? Every time my stomach starts to feel a little off, it's like, okay, what do I need to check in on?
And that is empowering to me because it's this way of, like, I think of my [00:42:00] illness now as like pulling me back into life, like pulling me back into the life that's actually life giving and in alignment and like more me. And if I start to feel sick, it's 'cause I'm veering off the path and going into old habits and mindsets and just ways of living that are not good for me,
'cause if it was, why would my body respond in that way, right? if that was truly how I was supposed to be. And so that's that empowering dance. And so it sounds like she. this woman you worked with helped to kind of, does that resonate with how she was kind of like changing your mind about your pain, you know, like seeing it through this different lens?
Andrew: Yeah. I mean she, you know, I started working with her when I was at my worst and she got me to, you know, through the, all the stuff I talked about earlier, the pain science piece. She got me through the nervous system. She got me started on the somatic tracking, and then I, I wrapped up with her and then I had, a few months where I had plateaued.
I still wasn't back on my bike even though, you know, I was convinced that it wasn't this physical issue. I had a lot of [00:43:00] fear around it.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yeah.
Andrew: And so, you know, I was going on about a year and a half of not riding when, you know, cycling was a big part of my identity coming to my house or cycling are all around.
My wife and I ride. my social outlet is riding, you know, it's a cultural thing. It's not just this hobby that I check in and outta.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yeah.
Andrew: so I wasn't back on my bike. That was goal one. Goal two was reducing my fear of the pain and not reacting to the tiny little flare ups I would get in that panic mode that you would get.
And the third one is I was trying to make a big decision on my job and not really career direction, but I had been with my old employer for a long, long time. They had moved me around the world and all that, and I was ready to make a change. so I ended up working with a second coach,
She's doing some different things now. And second coach, Jeannie Colwin, she's very active, and, and, and she, so I worked with her and she challenged all those things you're talking about, [00:44:00] you know, purpose and, you know, And, you know, where you're spending your, your energy. I mean, every time I would get on the phone with her, I would think I would be talking about, you know, one thing and she would take it up a level.
And when I help people, now I draw the line of where my capabilities are much earlier. I'm like, look, I'm an engineer. I helped you along. You really need to go and talk to, to, you know, somebody like you, Erin, or my old coach Jeannie. Like, you know, there's people that are much better at this.
And I don't pretend to be able to help that because I kind of see that, you know, this, the pain in the body thing can be so many different things. And I think, you know, you really need a lot of experience with kind of interacting with people to kind of read that. And I don't have that ability, but, and I also think that like, pain could just simply be a distraction for, for you to think about something that's more difficult,
Dr. Erin Hayford: you
Andrew: And I think that. For some people it's pain. Other people, it may be [00:45:00] another distraction work, being a workaholic, could be substance abuse, alcoholism. you can have an unhealthy relationship with exercise.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yep.
Andrew: a way to distract yourself. and some of those things, if you even think about that, has helped me change my perspective of exercise.
Like I'm still a work in progress. my wife right now shared me saying that she'd be laughing. 'cause this weekend I beat myself up about not getting to exercise. But you know, here we are, first world life of abundance and I create stress about how much I get to exercise. Unbelievably fortunate that I've got the time, the money, the location that I can go ride my bike on the trails.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yep.
Andrew: And why should I ever think.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Right.
Andrew: So I've tried, that's one area that this has opened me up to is like, every ride's a good ride now.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Mm-hmm.
Andrew: Like, I think I'm much better at, not being frustrated about exercise. especially with mountain biking, like, I just look at it differently.
Like it's so [00:46:00] much fun to ride your bike in the woods and, and so why would I ever finish a ride and be like, oh, that wasn't enough, or I didn't ride great, or whatever. just be thankful for it.
Dr. Erin Hayford: right? It's all about perspective, how we're.
And we can create those stories in the mind, and then the mind can take it and run with it and start to make it, you know, it just builds and builds and builds from there. So we can take something that is, a two hour thing on a bike and make it this negative experience. But again, it's like, well, why am I doing that?
What is behind that? Like, what is that thing in me that feels dissatisfied or it's never enough, or whatever that is. And yeah. You know, I think again, it's, it's, it's an inlet, right? It's, it is an opening invitation to say, okay, this is the surface. Kind of manifestation of something. What's the, it's like an iceberg.
Like what's be beneath the surface that's really driving this and how, how do I work with that? You know? And I think that that's part of the mindset shift for me too, where it's like, yes, symptoms suck. They hurt. No one wants them. I wouldn't wish them on anybody. And they are this incredible opportunity for you to get really curious [00:47:00] about why is your body doing that.
You know why? It's a very wise machine. They don't just break and fail. You know, I, that's kind of one of my sayings is bodies don't fail, they respond. And so what are they res? What's it responding to? It's this really beautiful opportunity to look more deeply and to. Kind of what you're talking about too, like not just from a physical perspective, like this mindset can go across all aspects of life where you just have a different relationship of Yeah.
Feeling more grateful and more present and more embodied and just more joyful and shifting into a different place because all of the things that are driving your body to manifest illness Absolutely. you know, manifest across the board. it's how you think about something, it's how you think about anything kind of thing.
So that's what I have found in my own work anyway, is the more I work on those stories and those ways of being that created my illness, like it's, it's starts to show up in all other places of my life where I just have more capacity for, like you were saying, that expanded nervous system, you know, I can hold more space for Yes.
[00:48:00] Pain, but also the other end of that spectrum, which is joy and gratitude and, and all of that as well. is that, does that match with your experience? It sounds like that's part of that cycling story for you.
Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. It just.
You know, why do we get so worked up about things, you know, like trying to find, and trying to get out of that mindset of like, I'm, I'm in a mode and that's the way I gotta stay in and, and I, I interact, you know, I interact with a fair amount of cyclists. My, my story is on a website called pn and cycling com, where the PN is p pudendal neuralgia.
Oh,
Dr. Erin Hayford: wow.
Andrew: So if you search pudendal neuralgia and you put in bicycling cycling, you'll get to this website. this great woman, Kate developed it because she dealt with it and it's got like six riders stories on it. So my story on there, so I get and I interacted with. The riders on there when I was first understanding it and got a range of [00:49:00] different things from the physical modalities and the, you know, getting a different seat to sit on and all these different things to some of the mind, body and stress component.
So now I have cyclists find me through there, and many of them are in that a type personality, riding a ton of hours, have all their data, you know, in charts and graphs, and got the bike computer and they wanna go back to that.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Hmm.
Andrew: And I'm like, well, why are, you know, I can't relate.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Sure.
Andrew: but I've done intentional things to get me out of that mindset. you know, I'm gonna be 52 coming up. I didn't make the Olympic team, like, let's just get real. What is cycling in your life? is it supposed to be fun? Social and opportunity to go buy some cool toys and put 'em on your bike.
they'll reach out to me and they're like, I wanna get back, I have spring races coming up, I wanna get, come on, let's realize why you ride. Let's get back to that. And maybe you need to totally ride for fun for a while.
It's like they [00:50:00] can't even. you've turned it into a, basically a method of abuse for yourself, even though you call it your hobby.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yeah. And that's that distraction piece you were talking about, right? anything can be a distraction if we want it to.
Andrew: Right. And so what are you not, what are you not focused on while you're doing that?
What do you, you know, again, it just could be, could be, you know, it could be alcoholism, it could be a number of different distractions and you know, maybe your brain has created new distractions called pain.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yep.
Andrew: And giving you something else to think about, rather than the things that you should be thinking about.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Totally. Yeah. And we were talking, and I kind of said it at the beginning of the podcast too, just how, fascinating in a way how our body can sometimes produce something that very specifically interferes with the thing that we wanna do. Or, you know, like maybe the thing that
Could be an escape or a distraction or something that's just, taking our focus, like our body can just be like, actually here's something that's gonna take you totally out of that. Even your work, right? Like for you, you had biking and work and both of those were like, Nope. how about neither of those are accessible [00:51:00] for you?
And yeah. Then if kind of forced you to look at it, right? Yeah.
Andrew: Yeah.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yep. And then you had also shared, what was her name? Amy Mann.
Andrew: Yeah, Amy Mann, the singer. Yeah. and, she just, my wife and I listened to her a lot when, we saw her in concert a few times back a while back.
Yeah. And, she just, she's just going out on tour again, but you can, you can find her, Story of she had to stop touring, stop recording, because she was dealing with incredible, migraines and listening to music made them worse. So you got a professional artist, this is what she does for a living.
And you know, people love her creative, you know, creative music and she couldn't do it. And she ended up being drawn to, basically cartoons. She draws comics but uses them satirically, sarcastically.
Dr. Erin Hayford: gonna say.
Andrew: she used that as her way out. She was essentially processing [00:52:00] emotions through this artwork, and she's returned to recording and touring.
so it's really cool. but her stress or whatever was going on. Her to not even be able to play. And that was what got her to recognize that I need to do something about it.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yeah. it's really hard to trust that something so painful and uncomfortable that's taking us out of life is, is for our benefit.
It's, you know, it's taking you out of life. If it is taking you out of life is that's intentional. Right? Like kind of just trusting that and trying to follow that and say like, what is it about. And it's not even necessarily what you're doing. 'cause like singing, performing biking isn't inherently bad.
Right. But maybe it's like, how are you using that? Or what are you not doing in addition to that that needs to be done or looked at? so it's just kind of trying to pull you in and get you to reassess. So then maybe you can go back to cycling or performing, but it's with that different mindset, like you said, like you're working on that mindset of can I make this actually like joyful and pleasurable versus like a task or a thing and a to-do list.
That's just like putting me more in [00:53:00] that survival stress mode. because that mindset is Yeah, that's not conducive to a healed body, right? That's just gonna shift you back into that state. I am. I am curious, like, do you feel like your approach to biking was kind of in the mind part of the mindset or approach to life that was part of what you think manifested your pain?
Andrew: Yeah, it was all of it. it was the stress I put around work. it was, looking at exercise is something I had to do. and it gets almost past stress relief. You just get it to be like, you, you know, this, self-abuse in some ways. It's like, you don't feel unfulfilled every time you don't get to it and you don't even know why.
So yeah, it was my relationship with exercise. It was the stress and, that I put myself under work and, what's it called when you're, when you doubt yourself and people actually think you're good at something?
Dr. Erin Hayford: Imposter syndrome.
Andrew: Imposter syndrome, yes. Had a massive amount of imposter syndrome with work. and this was [00:54:00] a number of things that all added up. and I think there was some identity change too. you're in a different role as a parent when your boys are your boys age, right.
And my boys my age, there's an identity change. And so there's a lot of things I think combining that, I was staying busy and not recognizing and not, being present. and so, yeah, I think the pain really got me to slow down. it got me to slow down so much that I spent weeks, at home, recovering.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yeah. Yeah, so we could say that's sort of the quote unquote gift, I guess, right? Is that it got you to slow down and reevaluate your approach to life and, and, and then of course the, like, other work that you've been doing. So, and I love your stepwise sort of approach, like for helping people like, you know, start with pain science, then move into that nervous system, and then kind of move into more, more like accessible things like breathing and somatic tracking.
You know, like it's, I can see how you're just really. Gently, like moving people into that space where then it's like, okay, now maybe let's look at some [00:55:00] emotional stuff, but you're not just like ripping off the bandaid of like, what happened to you when you were a kid? 'cause people are like, no, bye. Like not into that.
because my, you know, I'm not an engineer, but I feel like I have that kind of brain way of thinking of things. I always think of it like the force for the trees. Like what's the big picture first? And then how do we move people closer into the details? Because for me, that's how I make sense of things.
It's like, what's the big story that I need to understand to get, you know, get the big gist of it and then I, then I can start to understand the littler pieces. so I feel like that's really gonna help folks who have this kind of brain, but in general who are not ready to like, maybe take the leap. I can't tell you how many people have, like, who end up working with me have said like, I stalked your Instagram for years.
I was reading about this stuff for years before. I felt ready to like do the work. And it's understandable. it's unknown, it's scary, it's not really fun work sometimes to do the emotional stuff. Right. And we don't always want to, or, are not ready to like, change our life, especially if we don't know what that looks like or if we do know, maybe like we know [00:56:00] how it needs to change, but we're not ready for that.
So, I guess that's just sort of the message to folks, right? Is take your time with this and move at the pace that feels comfortable, but know that this is sort of the trajectory. This is an option and a path to really move into a different relationship with pain and symptoms in general.
and it's, yeah, like it's following what feels comfortable for you, but also I think knowing it is a little uncomfortable to shift into a different way of dealing with symptoms. It's unknown, it's unfamiliar, it's inherently going to be sort of scary to do that. but like what lays on the other side of this path versus the other path is, you know, I can't say across the board, it's gonna be amazing, but I think there's so much more to this than there ever could be.
You know, if we were just taking a pill and then like, pushing ahead with our normal life, like truly this is an opportunity and an invitation to step into something. Just more Yes, slow, beautiful, intentional loving, joyful, great gratitude filled, right, like what life is supposed to be essentially. so I know you had some thoughts too, just [00:57:00] like, people had mentioned like, if you could talk about this or that.
I just wanna make sure we touched on all the things that you wanted to touch on today with your story and, and anything else you wanna bring up.
Andrew: Yeah. Well you kind of just triggered one there. One of the, what people get a bit when they connect with me is, you know, I'm not a coach, I don't have a program.
I'm not looking to, you know, this is in my livelihood. So there's a, comfort factor there that when people interact with me, they know that I'm not trying to kind of, you know, hey, join my program and all that. Yes. Yep. And so they can use me as a sounding board and they can also say, you know, well, can I do all this on my own?
And it's like, sure, you could walk into the gym and look at all the equipment and maybe get in shape. But, you know, if they worked with a trainer, they would get in shape faster.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yep.
Andrew: And I kind of use that as a explanation so you know what, what they get with a coach. Seeing so many people, you know where they're at, you know how to aim them, [00:58:00] have all that experience, somebody that's gonna help hold you accountable and keep you on track, and that you're not gonna just flake out.
they wanna know what worked for me and what they get out of working with a, a trainer.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yep.
Andrew: I think we talked a bit about whether you're using a physical remedy while at the same time whatever you can do to get the pain under management.
I think the other thing is, with, people happen onto this discussion about pelvic pain, maybe it's just like anything, but it's what I end up interacting with people on. They wanna hear that you had all these symptoms because they have this specific thing and they don't hear it.
They lock up and be like, oh, well Andrew didn't have what I had.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yes.
Andrew: I had them all.
Dr. Erin Hayford: It
Andrew: I had the frequent and urgent and painful urination. I had deep pelvic pain. I had sexual pain and dysfunction. I had constipation, I had pain in my upper legs, lower back abdomen.
And then the sit bone pain that, you know, where people associate that with that pudendal [00:59:00] neuralgia. And they just, like we talked about earlier, they changed, you know, something would feel good and this, you know, something would feel bad and then it would feel okay. And then this, and I, when people connect with me, I tell 'em like, it doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter which one you have, or if your boxes don't check exactly what the boxes I had, you know, one these pelvic floor muscles all overlap and intertwine so they can wreak havoc. so don't get worried about that. And then the other one, it's like, it's all just a way that your brain is creating pain, turning signals into sensations and, keeping that going.
And it's just this neuroplastic, pattern pain, fear, pain, fear, just keep on each other. So I definitely wanted to cover that because it's very common when people connect with me about, you know, oh, I wanna hear what symptoms you had,
Dr. Erin Hayford: I love that. And that's my hope too with this podcast is to just keep interviewing like so many variety of things because that is, that's part of the nervous system too, [01:00:00] that I was talking about earlier, like safety in the nervous system.
We feel safe when it's familiar and it, it's almost like we have to see to believe, right? We have to like, see ourself in someone's story or we have to relate to it. So it's like, okay, it worked for them. It can work for me. Otherwise, there is so much fear and like, I don't know that, like, that hopelessness that can seek in or, sink into where it's, yeah, if it's not exactly the thing, it's like, well, okay, that's why 'cause it, he didn't have what I have, so like that's why it worked for him.
So I think that is really important what you said, like, it doesn't matter, although I know how much it feels like it matters. Like it truly is this sort of universal thing that can show up literally anywhere in the body. And even though it's not exactly the same, it's the same core principles, but you had it all also that checks all the boxes for the pelvic pain folks out there anyway.
Andrew: yeah. And there was, you know, get a lot of, like, they wanna know specifically what I did and then, you know, oh, did you journal? Did you do this? And I don't have good answers for that. That's another reason why [01:01:00] I aim people to coaches. I go, Hey, you, you've quickly hit the limit of my knowledge. And there's, people are much more capable and they're going to be able to read where you're at and suggest the things I said.
And again, this is not pills and prescriptions and surgery. It's not gonna be the same for everybody. Right. And so, you know, I would love it if I loved journaling. It's doesn't draw me to it. I know I would get more out of it if I did it. so it wasn't really part of my recovery.
but again, you know, Everybody's gonna kind of aim towards something different of what works for them. and so I think a lot of people overwork what they're going to do. Oh, I've been trying to decide how I'm gonna do this for months. Be like, whoa, just give it a shot. Try something for a bit.
See if it resonates with you.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yep, yep. That's important too. That kind of like analysis paralysis we get into. And I think that's, that's part of the fear, you know, it's like, it's unknown, so we just wanna make sure we know everything or have all the details or like have all the evidence it's gonna work and Yeah.
We just have to [01:02:00] start. even if you work with a coach and it doesn't quite work or it's not the right fit, like try another one. Just try something else because there's so many different ways.
To like approach this kind of work. There's so many different things that mean mind, body or somatic work or whatever. you know, the core of it is you're trying to get into that nervous system programming and that emotional programming and figure out what's there, but there's a thousand
ways to do it. So if it doesn't work the first time, if it's not the right coach, if it's not the right modality, just keep trying stuff because it doesn't like, you know, everyone not, so something that works for you isn't gonna work for me or isn't gonna work for the listener, right?
Like, we just have to try stuff and find the combo of things that work. And I think that's where it comes into, like, you can take a medication and you can be on that diet and you can also do this work or you can have any combination of stuff just as long as some part of what you're doing is focusing on the nervous system piece and the emotional, the trauma, emotional, whatever piece too.
doesn't matter what it looks like. Just like make sure that's part of your toolkit.
Andrew: But isn't that a statement about the personality types that have chronic pain? It's that [01:03:00] perfectionism that, like you said, analysis paralysis. And these are all personality traits that are common with people that develop chronic conditions.
So like even just recognizing that I was messaging with somebody just recently, I was like, Hey, isn't this exactly why you and I both dealt with? And, you know, she was like, yeah, I'm overthinking about what I'm gonna do. I'm like, just jump in and fail and then try something else.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yep.
Andrew: And you'll learn something in the process.
Dr. Erin Hayford: That's fascinating. I think that is an interesting, point to make. 'cause I'm realizing that most people I talk to, it's like we're all in our heads. We're thinking, we're all learning, but not a lot of doing, you know, not a lot of applying or embodying. So it's taking that leap
Andrew: You know, Dr. Sarno, he studied the personality traits that he saw that had chronic pain, that recovered through mind body approaches. And he had a list of typical personality traits and so that was really all very interesting stuff.
Dr. Erin Hayford: Yeah, that's fascinating too. Dr. Gabor Mate has the, when the Body says [01:04:00] No, and he talks about like personality traits with different conditions and diagnoses too.
So there's something to that for sure, and like how and why or where it manifests physically for us. It's really fascinating. this has been an amazing conversation. I'm so grateful for you just because you don't do this for like anything other than just to share your story. I think that's just incredible and so grateful for folks like you who have, first of all, walked this path.
So grateful for your healing and your pain-free. Life that you can just, get back to what really brings you joy and allow it to bring you joy and to, continue to just, feel like you're living the life that you really deserve. I'm just very grateful for you to have been willing to come on here to share this with us,
Insightful episode for folks. I love your approach that, those steps for people, like, I really think that's gonna land for people of like, okay, I, you know, I'm feeling lost or whatever, but now I have step one, like, where do I start? Okay, I'm gonna start learning about pain science. I'll get some books, I'll start following Alan Gordon and you know, these names that we've mentioned.
Like, there's so much out there to just start to familiarize yourself with more of that bigger picture of like, what's [01:05:00] actually going on. And then as you feel safer with those bigger pieces, like moving in further and further to more like, okay, so what is this about me? What do I need to specifically do and look at now that I understand these bigger pieces?
so grateful for that approach and so grateful for you and, thanks for being on the podcast. I'll link your name down below if people do wanna reach out and just chat with you, or learn from you or see pictures of your dogs and your bikes,
Andrew: if that's worth it,
Dr. Erin Hayford: Absolutely, yes. Thank you Andrew
Andrew: much, Erin, this has been fun.[01:06:00]
